Marina Abramović Interview

INTERVIEW   Maddalena Iodice

PHOTOGRAPHY   Michael Hauptman

STYLING   Omaima Salem

ARTWORK   Courtesy of the Marina Abramović Archives

Everything has been said, shown and written about artist Marina Abramović. Countless are the interviews and the public talks that the pioneer of performance art has been invited to, where—one word after another—she has tailored a narrative punctuated with anecdotes about her personal and professional journey—one that today is widely popular. It comes as no surprise that some of the most recent projects looking at her life and work approach from new angles, such as Marina Abramović: A Visual Biography (2023), an archival book exemplary of what can be achieved when trust and control are shared. Through her enduring and provocative work, Marina, The grandmother of performance art, reclaimed the genre from its marginal position in the art world, showing that it can be a vehicle for highly emotive and socio-political messages. Works such as The Artist is Present performed at MoMA, New York, in 2010, saw people queueing for hours, camping outside the museum, waiting their turn to “Sit silently with the artist for a duration of your choosing”—so the instructions read—and experience a moment of connection that exposes the human longing for empathy and togetherness. It is perhaps in the name of such a universal need that on Friday 28th June at 6pm she will appear for 10 minutes on Glastonbury Festival’s Pyramid Stage. Intriguingly, her invitation follows in the footsteps of the Dalai Lama, who back in 2015 was welcomed onto the main stage by Patti Smith with a heartfelt poem in anticipation of his 80th birthday. Marina’s own journey owes much to her time spent among Tibetan Buddhist monks and shamans, whose practices allowed her to delve into the power of consciousness, transcending the limits of the body and ultimately reaching the connective energy her artistic oeuvre is known for. Now 77, Marina’s energy is still unstoppable. Her enthusiasm for life and continuous experimentation is what keeps her going, and what literally electrifies the screen the instant she connects for this interview. There is no stage, no enormous audience; there is nothing more than the mundanity of a Saturday morning. That’s where the conversation begins, before taking a curious detour as Marina reflects on how technology impacts our lives.

Hi Marina, where are you right now?

Oh, in the countryside, making chicken. I love to make really good organic chicken that roasts for two hours.

Amazing. What a perfect Saturday morning! Where in the countryside? 

Upstate. It’s two and a half hours from New York. Where are you?

I am in London, and it is finally such a beautiful day outside.

Okay, let’s start the interview so I can go back to my chicken! Did you see the pictures from the cover story photoshoot? Because I didn’t. 

I had a very quick preview. They are very cool. Did the shoot happen at your estate? 

Yes. You know, I enjoyed the concept a lot! We played with this idea of a mad secretary whose office changes all the time, but is only outdoors. 

How did the idea come about? 

You’ll have to ask the photographer; I didn’t decide anything. I just went there and did exactly as he told me. 

Interesting. I was actually curious to know if it happened in a collaborative way. . . 

You know, it is always collaborative with me. Usually people come with a concept that don’t like and I have to find a way to gently change their idea so they don’t feel offended. I tend to put everything upside down. But for this one, Michael Hauptman came with such a nice concept. The mad secretary scenario was new to me and I enjoyed every minute of it! You know, I gave control away only two times in my life. The first one was with Bob Wilson on the occasion of the theater play Life & Death of Marina Abramović. I gave him all my material—my writings and my diaries—I shared all the sad stories from my childhood, and I told him to edit it the way he liked. I knew my life would look different from his perspective, because when it’s me editing I always choose the same images. He was like, “Marina, I am not interested in your art, everybody knows it already!” It was incredible, he really created a new point of view on my world. 

When was the second occasion that you gave control to somebody else?

It was with Laurence King publishing which made a book called Marina Abramović: A Visual Biography. On this occasion I gave them 25,000 images from my archive. It was material I had not looked at for a while, but I gave it all to Katya Tylevich, who had the chance to edit in her own way. I was shocked when I saw the selection. There were images I didn’t even know existed and that I would have never shown the world. Some terrible stuff, but I had to stick to what we agreed. Turns out the book was a great success! People like to see things they normally don’t have access to. 

It is very interesting to observe where the process takes you when you consciously decide to give control to someone else. It can take some unexpected detours.

Yes! This Cover Story was the third time and it was very nice. The team knew the location already and they had an amazing selection of clothes. I didn’t know anything until I got to the shoot and I was instructed on what I had to do. They were very imaginative and used the outdoor space in a very interesting way, choosing places I never really noticed. Wind, rain and sunshine—they were all collaborating to make these images. The office props were so funny!

Do you spend a lot of time doing office work?

I do. I spend a lot of time now doing work at my computer. Actually, let’s talk a little bit about the artist’s life and how in the past most of them used to work in a studio making paintings, drawings, films. . .But they never really did office work. Today, instead—with the computer, the internet and social media—everything has shifted to table work. Much like studio work, it’s really interesting. I have a love-hate relationship with technology. Over the weekend I disconnect. This interview is an exception—normally I don’t even answer the phone. The contradiction is that we need this device to communicate, which impacts the way we think and our relation to the environment. A long time ago I used to  paint a lot. I would wear a special outfit covered in paint. I would look like hell. My nails were not polished red but blue and green, because I could never wash paint off properly.

The boundaries between reality-digital and human-machine are becoming more and more blurred, which comes with some ambivalences. Actually, what do you think about having A.I. joining our conversation? Have you ever used ChatGPT?

No, what is it? Tell me more.

ChatGPT is an artificial intelligence–based chatbot. It’s a language model, which relies on a “Generative Pre-trained Transformer” and allows users to enter prompts and receive human-like responses.

Let’s do it!

Should we prompt the system to ask you a heavy question or something a bit more light and funny?

I’d like you to feel completely free in giving the prompt you want. I give you trust and control.

Alright! “If you had the chance to ask one question to Marina Abramović, what would it be?” [enters prompt into ChatGPT] ChatGPT: “If I had the opportunity to ask Marina Abramović one question, I’d probably ask her about the intersection of art and human consciousness. Specifically, I’d be curious to know how she sees her work influencing or reflecting the way people perceive and understand their own minds, emotions, and connections to others. Her immersive and often confrontational performances delve into profound aspects of the human experience, so I think her insights on this topic would be incredibly enlightening.”

I am impressed! I’m sorry, but it’s way better than what many journalists ask me. Okay, this is a very complex question and needs a very serious answer. First of all, I was very lucky to find my medium immediately. Through performance art, I understood that the body is a universe. We all have different shapes, different sizes and different skin colors, but we are made of the same genetic material. Exploring my own body—its physical and mental confines—is what ultimately creates the bridge to others. That is how my audience receives a message and understands what I am conveying. The three basic human fears are always there. Humans are afraid of temporality, because we are all going to die of pain and suffering. These are emotions incorporated into most forms of art. It is really about these three deep emotions. What I’m doing is addressing them. The connection in my work is very, very emotional. What you will find yourself experiencing is literally a transmission of energy and the memory of that experience. In conclusion, my work is about finding a key to lift the human spirit. We are living in a very difficult moment of human history where we must hold on to positivity; there must be something that is not just about destruction, violence and death.

What is the next question?

This one is from me: Your durational performances are very much rooted in the connection you’re able to create with the audience. When the performance ends, how do you dilute and channel the adrenaline and energy drawn from the experience? I am thinking about works such as Rhythm 0, The House with the Ocean View, or The Artist is Present.

You know, that’s really the biggest problem for any performance artist or musician who deals with an enormous public. We are talking about 50,000 to 200,000 people, who are giving energy and receiving energy back! The amount of energy you are left with when the show ends can be extremely destructive if you don’t know how to deal with it. When lacking tools, musicians sometimes find themselves taking drugs, or overdosing in the attempt to calm down. I am thankful for the time I spent with Shamans, Tibetan monks and Buddhist. Their practices taught me how to deal with this exact energy. When the performance ends, you have to cut out the parties and deal with it yourself. It is important to observe solitude, to breathe, or to have an ice cream. Ice cream is always good! It is about understanding how to transform that energy internally, not externally. You know, people will want to surround you and talk about your work, but that just takes more and more from you. I don’t know if you know already, but this summer I’m going to be on the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury for 10 minutes.

No way! Amazing! I think you will be the first performance artist who ever joined the stage.

It is going to be big. So we will see how that works.

Do you already know what your participation will entail?

I can’t tell you anything! Other than that it’s going to be on Friday 28th at 6pm.

Marina, both me and the A.I. have asked you a question, now I would like to know if there is a question you’d like to ask to yourself. Whether you have the answer or not.

How long do I have before I die? This is something that I would like to know and which would allow me to use the remaining time in a conscious and meaningful way. Last year, I almost died and it was something I could not control. I am well now, but when you get to 77, you really understand this is the last part of your life and this changes your perspective. I just need another 20 years or something. I just want to know what it looks like when you are over 100!

What is your relationship like with the new generation of artists and their work in the field of performance? I found it very interesting that on the occasion of your exhibition at Royal Academy here in London, you re-activated some of your performances in collaboration with younger practitioners.

The relationship is extremely close and involved. They are my favorite audience! There’s something that the young generation really reacts to in my work. And it is easier for me to connect with them, which is why the program at the Marina Abramović institute offers teachings and workshops to artists who want to further explore performance practice. I don’t want anybody to be me. I just want them to learn what it takes to physically and mentally do performance. The Marina Abramović Institute takeover at the Southbank Centre in London was a really good example. There,12 artists from 12 different countries performed durational works. They were incredible! I was so proud to see how the initiative played as a platform for their work and the transformative force of performance. I’m very much interested in encouraging the young generation to do their own work and understand that the deeper they go into themselves, the more universal their message will become. It is important for them to acknowledge that art is not about  commodity and money. Performance has never been, you know— It is the most immaterial form of art. Its potential lies in its capacity to connect and touch the human being. It is magic. 

I think art forms such as painting and sculpture are incredibly powerful, but sometimes when experienced in the confines of a white cube or a museum, the way we take them in gets quite passive. With performance you are not just a spectator, but a contributor to the energy that is constituted in the space, in a very precise moment in time. I think what new generations want is to feel things deep in their gut. Exactly! The public is so tired of looking at something, the public wants to be part of something. It is a big difference. Today’s museums are still based on an 18th-century structure. Somehow, during long durational performances, time collapses and what participants experience is a form of permanence. They come and go, they come back, they bring friends, they sleep outside right in front of the museum—this speaks to an energy that is worth exploring.

Let’s ask another question to the A.I.. What about “If Marina Abramović was invited to join Glastonbury Festival, what performance would she do?”

Excellent question! I am dying to hear this one. This is fun!

OK, we have the answer. . .ChatGPT: “If Marina Abramović were invited to perform at Glastonbury Festival, she might create a performance piece that engages with the festival’s atmosphere and energy while also challenging and provoking the audience’s perceptions. Perhaps she could stage a durational performance where she sits in silence amidst the bustling crowds, inviting festival-goers to join her one by one in a moment of shared stillness and introspection. This could create a powerful contrast between the frenetic energy of the festival and the meditative presence she brings to the space. Alternatively, she might devise a participatory performance that encourages attendees to confront their own vulnerabilities or fears in a supportive and transformative environment, fostering a sense of connection and empathy among participants. Whatever the specific form of the performance, I imagine it would be a thought-provoking and immersive experience that resonates deeply with the festival’s ethos of artistic expression and communal celebration.”

Ooh, ooh, I— Wait— I need to see what happened to my chicken. Todd, can you open to see if the chicken is burning? [background chatter] Okay, can you please lower the heat? Thank you.

Wow. Okay, this is so interesting. Especially because the A.I. gave me an alternative to the first idea, which would be impossible to do. People don’t come to Glastonbury for me, they come for the music. There will be some incredible musicians on the stage. I will have 10 minutes only. What could work is using the idea of silence and transmission of energy. It is really about being aware of the context you are working with. It is a festival—people go to have fun. They will be taking drugs, they will be drinking. It is  a state of mind that doesn’t align so easily with the work I generally do. I will have 10 minutes only and I have to use them in the best possible way I can.

Let’s take this to the next level and ask, “What if she only has 10 minutes?”

Oh please, yes!

ChatGPT: “If Marina Abramović only had 10 minutes to perform at Glastonbury Festival, she could create a condensed yet impactful piece that captures the essence of her work. One idea could be a performance where she interacts with objects symbolizing aspects of human experience or emotion. In just 10 minutes, she could move through a series of actions, gestures, or rituals that evoke themes such as vulnerability, connection, transformation, or endurance. This could involve simple yet potent movements, perhaps accompanied by evocative music or soundscapes, to create a powerful and immersive experience for the audience. Another approach could be a performance where she engages directly with the audience, inviting them to participate in a brief but intense moment of connection or reflection. This could involve eye contact, touch, or shared vocalizations, creating a sense of intimacy and shared humanity in a short span of time.”

I want to meet this A.I.! Seems like it reads my mind. The second part is definitely the direction I might be exploring. Now, I would like you to ask the A.I. what the final question of this interview should be.

Something like: “If I had to ask one final question to Marina, what question should it be?”

Yes. Exactly.

ChatGPT: “If you had one final question for Marina Abramović, it might be deeply personal and introspective, reflecting on the profound impact of her work on both individuals and society as a whole. You could ask her something like: ‘What do you hope your legacy will be, both as an artist and as a provocateur of human consciousness?’ This question encapsulates the breadth and depth of her artistic journey, inviting her to reflect on the lasting imprint she wishes to leave on the world through her innovative and transformative art.”

This is good! I have been reflecting a lot on the importance of what I will be leaving behind. When I think about my contribution to the art world, the first thing, for me, is the introduction of the notion of reenactment—the possibility of re-performing the historical pieces of different artists. The possibility of making new versions while respecting the original material. In the past it was a mess. Everybody was  using everything without giving any kind of credit to artists. With Seven Easy Pieces at Guggenheim, I made a statement which I think had an important impact. The second thing was to discover, later in my career, the power of long durational performance.

What makes it different?

When you perform something for one hour, or two hours, you can still pretend; you can still be somebody else, you can still act. But when that time frame is expanded—when it comes to days and days—everything falls down. All masks fall down and you become extremely vulnerable. This vulnerability connects you to the public in the right way, because the public is then vulnerable too. The creation of the Abramović method and the Marina Abramović Institute will be part of my legacy, too. These are important anchors for me that incorporate the methodology at the core of my practice and, through a series of workshops, prepare practitioners for the challenge of durational performance. Cleaning the House is a workshop which entails a series of detoxifying activities which ultimately are meant to clean your own house—your body. The Institute also offers a similar experience to people who simply want to reconnect with themselves. I will leave behind a grant to support the work of young performance artists and a very big archive of the history of performance that people will be able to access and study. Before becoming mainstream, performance art was neglected. It was nobody’s territory. This is a process I contributed to through my work. I never gave up and I am still here, performing. It’s crazy, but I’m doing it—I will die working! But I’m just always interested in new things. That’s what really keeps me going. I wake up in the morning and see the world like a kid. I am like ‘Oh my God, let’s do it again.’

Well, I think that should be the last question!

We have been speaking for more than one hour I think.

This is like a book in itself! Okay, now I really have to go back to the chicken and prepare lunch here. This was a great interview!

This was amazing, Marina! I’ll see you at Glastonbury.